(Patriarchial Traditions, Feminism & the Word)
First, I’d like to say, I’m still in the learning process about this particular subject. Some parts of the argument gave me a new perspective on things. Hopefully, it will give you guys something to think about as well.
The equality of men and women. What does this mean? and, maybe more importantly, is it biblical? There are two bible passages that are most often noted when we talk about this area.
Reading Galatians, it seems that men and woman are considered equal in the body of Christ. Both are equal heirs to eternal life and redemption. But then, contrast this against what is said in Timothy: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man.”
From people I have spoken with, some women consider this passage as a note about the historical context. At this time, men were considered heads of households and women… well, almost property. So consequently, this passage can be ignored, since we are now in the era of sexual equality. I’d have to argue back with the second verse: “For Adam was formed first, then Eve.” This seems to be used a scriptural backup for the previous verse. And even as we have progressed into a sexually equal society, the fact remains that Adam was formed first… followed by Eve.
Galatians does say that both genders have equality within the body of Christ. However, if we are to examine the analogy further… we have to admit that the body is made up of different body parts. Each part of the body is made for a different purpose and is equally necessary for the body to function properly. The liver cannot say it is more important than the lungs, nor the eyes more useful than the ears. So in this, both genders are equal within the body of Christ.
But when you read Timothy, it is not addressing the equality of the body of Christ, but rather the relationship between men and women. This may bring up thoughts of jim crow laws… seperate, but equal. This passage doesn’t say that women are not to teach. It doesn’t say women cannot hold positions of authority. It does seem to say that it is wrong to give a woman headship above a man. Right after this, it refers to the Fall of Adam & Eve into sin. Try reading that passage in terms of lack of leadership from the man… I think when you do that, the sin of Adam was one of passivity… instead of stepping up and leading, he is following Eve into sin.
Now I’m not one to say that woman’s place is at home, barefoot and taking care of the children. But I am saying there is some sort of line between the genders. Something that is appropriate for a woman is not appropriate for a man… and vice versa. This argument of leadership can be easily polarized by mentioning two ideas: Domination & Ability. Take care to note that I’m not advocating domination of male over female. I’m advocating servant-leadership similiar to Christ as the head and the church as His body. Leadership is taking the intiative and setting an example. Jesus never dishonored women. Even when talking to strange women was taboo, Jesus reached out to a Samaritan woman. But also note, Jesus picked 12 disciples… and none of them were female. Yet in the story of the gospel… the resurrection is first witnessed by a pair of women. As a leader, both the responsibility of consequences and the power of decision-making falls upon you. It is not simply a matter of the woman submitting to any man… It is also calling the man to servant-leadership. A man answers to God for what goes on in his family… because that is his responsibility… regardless of where the fault lies. Just like how CEO’s are now being held responsible for what goes in the entire company… regardless of actually who does it.
The other polarizing area is the idea of ability. When I advocate the idea that men should lead when both men and women are present, there is this idea that I am making woman less than a man. I can’t say that woman make bad leaders. Some of our world leaders are women. Even our church has many women in powerful positions. I’ve known good and bad leadership from both sides of the gender divide. But it really boils down to this: Just because a woman has awesome leadership skills, does it mean she can use it any way she wants? (In other words, is God-given ability the only way to figure out our proper roles?) I’d say no. You have a gift from God, but in addition, you must learn how to use the gift properly. I’m actually making a point that God meant men to lead and women to be helpers when the genders mix. The bible refers to a woman as a “suitable helper”… But I think this is where the english language fails to properly describe exactly the kind of “help” God created when he made the first woman. The closest I analogy can find is when God is called our “helper”. So don’t even try to make “helper” someone lower than you in ability or skill. God’s skill set would blow anyone out of the water. A man is called to servant-leadership, whether it be with his family or with the church. A woman is called sometimes to leadership among women and sometimes to follow male leadership.
Even among those who say that men should be leaders and represent the headship of Christ, there is yet another kink in this twisted tale. When men are the heads of households and women are not allowed to teach or hold authority over them… There is an idea that women must do this to appease a man’s pride. In other words, if women lead, it makes the man sin. Like the analogy of eating food sacrificed to idols…. it doesn’t mean anything to a strong Christian… but if eating food sacrificed to idols causes a weaker Christian to stumble… the strong Christian should abstain. The verse usually used to back this argument is noted below:
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”
This is the consequence of eating the fruit. That childbearing will become a more painful experience. And wives will desire their husbands… yet their husbands will rule over them. When I think of ruling, the first idea that comes to mind is tyranny… or dictatorship. This bumps again into the difference between leadership and dominion. However, I believe you can clarify it using the alternative idea of how marriage portrays/ represents God’s love for his people.
…
In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
I believe this verse clarifies exactly how husbands and wives should relate to each other. Wives are called to submit to the husband’s authority. And husbands are called to love their wives as they love themselves. Now the problem is whether one can make a reasonable leap from male-female relationships within marriage… and male-female relationships outside of marriage.
There’s more ideas that I haven’t covered… but given that I’ve spent 3 weeks on this puppy… I’m toast. Hopefully it gives you guys something interesting to gnaw on for awhile.
Stalemate in decision making?
Democracy & Equal Partnership?
Rights & Responsibility
——- Online Tidbits ——-
Puppies used for smuggling…
Doing good… anonymously.
A lower interest CC can be more expensive?!?
More than just kissing your pooch…
90 y.o takes on a thief… WWF-style.
Momma was right… tie your shoelaces!!
Freedom of press vs Being PC in a religious context.
Rising wedding costs
That’s an interesting way to increase your net worth…
10th Planet… or Belt object?
Can following government policies be evil?
Obesity is in itself a risk…
And the deaf will hear..
Martial Arts… at work.
I never remembered middle school being like this…
Drinking… beneficial & deterimental effects.
SUV’s and starvation…
Internet: useful in building & maintaining social networks
Bats: Brains or Balls?
Engineering prowess… minus common sense?
Addressing political bias within academic circles
A japanese invasion… of an alien sort.
Don’t trust everything you read on the internet..
Katrina: Insurance Hell…
Prisons go Big Brother style
Would you buy this game??
Love… twisted.
The humiliated burglar
A-message-in-a-bottle story…
Pimp-my-ride gone awry…
Japan get a whale to study… Greenpeace-style.
A little Scooba parable
Pray for John Piper…
hem, interesting book that you are reading.. i’m trying to get my hands on that book.. i dunno if you’ve read ” disappointment with God”, but just wondering, what’s the difference? coz just from the title, it probably talk about almost the same thing??..
-gRaCe-
Have you been looking at this site? http://www.cbmw.org/
*roll eyes* could you possibly have made this ANY longer to make it MORE difficult for me to comment? well, I’m sick, so I’m going to use this excuse to say, call me, we’ll talk/argue/smack down through it…but just a tidbit for your amusement in the meantime, that passage in Genesis the “helper” word in Greek is nezer knegdo (sp?) which means help meet. only 2 other places used in the Bible 1. Assyrian army coming to the aid of the Israel army, at that point strongest army in the world (excuse me if I get any of this slightly wrong, it’s been a while since I studied it and I misplaced my notes :p) 2. God’s help. So you can see this is not merely a “helper” as you and I would think of the word helper…also “rib” is not rib it = the whole side… ideas to keep in mind as I cough some more here at work :p
:sunglasses: what are you studying in school? because i’m taking a women in ministry class right now and we’re going through all this. i think i’m between hierarchal complementarianism and evangelical feminism…but this is a tough topic.
anyway, have a great weekend :o)
haha,sorry .. i thought you were in seminary.. or a theology major or something like that :o) hierarchal comp. is like a softer version of hierarchalism (headship) – basically what you said about man being the authority in the home and church but he is to rule in love, not like a tyrant.. and evangelical fem. is a softer version of radical feminism (total egalitarian).
😯 i like these icons..they’re so cute, haha
how are you doing? 🙂
im doing well, but there’s something up with my ear because it’s beating like my heart… and I dont know whats wrong with it.. it’s kind of annoying. :blue:
Wow u wrote on my page!! Ha…oh and whatcha wondering about?
Hmmm…Even though we had a long conversation with this..Just wanted to add more. I think a guy should lead but I definitely don’t agree that women should submit to their husband’s authority. Men can love their wife as they love themselves but doesn’t mean you won’t do to yourself because men has a natural assumption that they are invincible until something happens.
If childbearing makes a female desire her husband, what makes a husband desire his wife? Men could desire their wives but as time goes on, memories fade but at least women has the scar to remember. What can the husband hold on to other than his ‘power’ of the house? The quote doesn’t mention about how rulers tend to be greedy and enjoys dominating new territory once he is bored with the old. .
So at the end I think guys should lead but when ruling a family both should be equal =X
:wave:Yes but it’s natural to want something that’s equal to you or better. How many CEO’s have happy, healthy relationships with their family. How many of their wives are happy?
First, what makes a man “head” of the family? Is it when a man does something or makes a decision, and the women should listen, submit to his commands, and support it? It could be like a CEO where he takes in the advice of his advisors but how many times would he do that and which parts would that CEO listen? It’s like listening to your parents when they give advice. Sometimes it’s important but to you they are nagging. Some might say well it isn’t nagging but when you’re in a relationship and they always comment on your decision, it would be nagging. A marriage has only two people in it (children doesn’t count yet).
What if the wife does not agree with it and the man does it anyway because he is “the head” of the family. He might listen half of the time or more but doesn’t that build up and become a habit? Is that truly a healthy relationship? You cant hope to rule and hope for a advisor on the side if there’s only two of you. When we’re young and only dating, is one “head” of the relationship compared to the other? People don’t say after the second date “Oh so now we’re kinda dating, I just like to inform you that’ i’ll be head of the relationship and you’ll be my advisor babe, okie? ^.~” Most people who date look at each other as equals and not below or above. They look at each other as independent and that’s why they are attracted to each other.
Why should it change because of marriage? Many times, isn’t it what marriage that kills the relationship? Maybe it’s because the whole though of a man should lead and be head of the family that kills it. Couple years after marriage, most men wonder what happened to the girl he first dated when she was only trying to satisfy him by becoming only his “advisor”.
What kind of person wants to work all day and then come home to a place where they are not treated equal but looked upon as just a tiny bit lower. Yes, only a tiny bit but perception in each person’s eye differs. What kind of love is it when one makes the decision, while the other gives the opinion.
Without civil war, there would not be room for improvement. Without improvement there would not be a chance to grow. A relationship is not who’s in charge, who’s greater, who’s ahead. A relationship is a love that both has for each other. Leaders become tired of leading. It’s hard. Sometimes it’s nice to lead while others times it’s nice to have someone do the work for you.
A dictator begins as something/someone who is trying to do something great for his country just as a man would want to do for his family. So in that sense, would a dictator be so bad if he is doing it for the people in hope that things will improve?
Well if both parties are persistant and will always have deadlock then they might not be fit for each other. It’s like runnig a country. You need compromise between other countries. If not, where’s your relationship? You have to look at each other as equals, because if you don’t, it’ll be like how most of the larger countries handle their colonies/other countries. =X
yeah im going to when it starts to hurt. 🙂
hey,
i don’t know how many times you visited my site in a day, but you amazes me! it’s like just 30 minuets or even sooner after I posted an entry, there’s your comment waiting for me… ahaha.. but it’s all good.. :). I don’t know how it feels to read my entries from other people’s perspective, but one that comes into mind would be the fact that it sounds really depressing or something like that, I don’t know how you manage to read my every single entries.. that’s crazy, but I appreciate it…
your last comment kinda clear things up for me… i guess there are 2 layers of questions in my head.. the faithful and the faithless questions.. I don’t know how I got both of them, but i guess right now, it just a matter how to turn that faithless questions into a faithful question and somehow remade it and use it so that it will work to build my faith.
thanks a lot.. I really owe you..
-gRaCe-
That’s a tough one, man. There’s always the, “how does the Bible have to change to fit modern society?” question. The answer is that it doesn’t!
it’s like the most amazing thing ever! I like it just about as much as I like food.